From: hekunze@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) Subject: Wrestling TidBits - 04/20 Date: 1995/04/20 Message-ID: X-Deja-AN: 101250919 sender: news@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (USENET News System) organization: University of Waterloo newsgroups: rec.sport.pro-wrestling - Sabu on FMW's wrestling style: "It kind of sucks because our Japanese guys are the shits. Onita's got the charisma, and that's all he's got. His wrestling talent is gone. He's only 36 years-old and he wrestles like the Sheik or something. Goto, he's just a bull. The wrestling style sucks. The people like it because they want to see blood and broken tables and chairs. That stuff is alright, it's just that it gets boring. I'm too young to do that style. That's the older guys' style, I think. "Working that style regularly, you get bored with wrestling. It gets stale. Our guys ain't like New Japan guys or All Japan guys, they're the shits. They had bad training. They work out all the time, they're just not any good. [...] "So if [Onita's] done with me, then I'll move on. But if he's not, then I'll stay there, not keep my mouth shut, but I'll stay there and bitch." As has been discussed in the newsgroup for a while now, Sabu no-showed ECW's "Three Way Dance" arena show on 04/08, leading to the fans and the promotion turning on him in retaliation. Sabu had recently abandoned his loyalty to Atsushi Onita in Japan and was finally getting his break with New Japan Pro-wrestling. Sabu was notified that both ECW and New Japan wanted to book him on 04/08, getting the ECW booking one day earlier in late March. Meltzer reports that Sabu figured that he could work Tokyo and then fly in to Philadelphia, using the time difference to his advantage. That's not possible, and New Japan asked him to get out of the ECW date. Despite the interest in ECW in Japan, New Japan in the end understandably viewed the commitment as a small independent shot. Sabu claims that Paul E. Dangerously would not let him hang up the phone without agreeing to work the date, since ECW viewed the 04/08 show as it's biggest show to date, so he finally agreed that he would be there, a move he admits was a mistake. Sabu on ECW: "I think [Paul E's] doing a good job. But I don't know what direction they want to go in, they're only running one town. [...] "I don't want to say [anything about liking ECW's style] because they'll hear about it, but not really. They want to do it like an FMW style with blood and chairs and everything, and give them everything in one fuckin' show. I don't believe in that shit. I'll just do what they want because they're paying me, but my heart ain't totally into it." Paul E was obviously pissed at the turn of events on 04/08, with (one of) the biggest stars of the promotion not appearing. From the Observer, "He left me with no other options regarding him and that's really a shame. But I have no choice. If I let this go, I have no control in my dressing room. I lose control of my dressing room and once that happens, the ballgame is over." In the end, Paul E told the fans that Sabu screwed them and asked for their reaction to it. Predictably, the ECW hardcores chanted "Fuck Sabu!", a chant/message that would be carried throughout the evening. To his credit, Paul also offered the fans a refund at intermission if they wanted to leave, unveiling the surprise replacement of Rick Steiner just before the recess. Although one might blame the story line being diluted by the substitution, the fact remains that the main event was below the usual level for the big ECW Arena shows. Despite Sabu and perhaps some others being upset, Paul E handled the evening perfectly, establishing that Sabu had turned on the promotion and the fans, keeping alive the feeling amongst his hardcore fans that they and the promotion are on the same (in)side. As with FMW before it, Sabu was staying with ECW and bitching. From the Observer, "The last five or six months, the direction of ECW I didn't like anymore. Paul knows it. I'd tell him what I didn't like." Meltzer reports that Sabu felt that picking New Japan over ECW on 04/08 was an important decision in his future, although he admits that he didn't handle things as he should have. From the Observer, "He also felt there was prestige in working for New Japan, but none in working for ECW, calling it a b.s. style of wrestling, and said that he had a vision of what he wanted pro-wrestling to be and ECW wasn't it and wasn't going to be it. He said the WWF came even closer than ECW to his vision but they weren't it either and that New Japan and All Japan come the closest, in that they treat pro-wrestling as a competitive sport with clean finishes using finishing moves rather than as exhibition." Sabu on ECW fans: "ECW fans didn't like the hour broadway -- they just want brawling here." Sabu on New Japan: "You don't need a chair to get over and you don't need a f*** to get over. I like clean finishes. It dates back to being an amateur wrestler. I don't like getting beat but the day comes when you have to. In ECW, everything is an angle. New Japan, they're all competitive matches." In fact, Sabu had already picked North American indy dates over New Japan once before when the NA dates had been booked first. But New Japan is now paying him several thousand dollars a week (for however many matches they use him in) and the NA indies, ECW included, just can't compete financially. Sabu has talked about working PPV shots with WCW and Meltzer guesses that he might work indy dates for Dennis Coralluzzo. Neither ECW nor Sabu has ruled out Sabu returning to that promotion in the future, although Sabu was really buried on the 04/08 show. Although I don't think there's anybody in this newsgroup who wouldn't say that Sabu is an exciting wrestler to watch, there have been a few people that have labelled him as lacking in some areas, most notably psychology and transitions. Those are things he'll improve on in New Japan without question, so building a strong bond with the promotion is good for him for more than just financial reasons. Sabu has always given me the impression that he has nothing to learn from ECW and he clearly was not all that happy there; he just loves to work, going so far as to say that he doesn't really think about the fans, that he just tries to entertain himself. - The WWF has "In Your House" on 05/14/95. This is the first of the cheaper and shorter WWF PPVs. Tentative line-up has: - Diesel vs. Sid Vicious for the WWF Title - Undertaker vs. Kama - Bret Hart vs. Hakushi - Razor Ramon & 1-2-3 Kid vs. Jeff Jarrett & Roadie The original main event had been advertised as a Diesel vs. Michaels re-match at the arena, but the WWF had a really slick video package to hype the Diesel vs. Vicious main. Talk is that Shawn Michaels wanted time off after WrestleMania and the Sid angle (turning Shawn face on his return) allowed that. - WCW announced the line-up for the US Title tournament on TV this past weekend. Vader was stripped of the US Title after an attack on Dave Sullivan. With typical incompetence, Gene Okerlund called the single elimination tournament a "round robin" tournament. Here's the bracketing: Sting --\ /-- Randy Savage |--\ /--| Arn Anderson --/ \ / \-- Butcher |--\ /--| Johnny B. Badd --\ / \ / \ /-- Steve Austin |--/ \ / \--| Paul Orndorff --/ \ / \-- Jim Duggan |-- Final --| Meng --\ / \ /-- Ric Flair |--\ / \ /--| Marcus Bagwell --/ \ / \ / \-- Patriot |--/ \--| Brian Pillman --\ / \ /-- Alex Wright |--/ \--| Bunkhouse Buck --/ \-- Big Bubba Rogers Matches will air on WCW Saturday Night and WCW Main Event in coming weeks, with the final taking place live at the June Bash PPV. - There are some reports that Steve Austin and Brian Pillman may be out of WCW and others quickly disputing them. - With WCW Uncensored getting around a 0.95 buy rate, the WWF has to sorely disappointed that WrestleMania only got between a 1.3 and 1.5 buy rate. - WCW has Slamboree on 05/21/95. Tenative line-up includes: *- Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage (with Renegade) vs. Vader & Ric Flair (with Arn Anderson) - Sting vs. Big Bubba Rogers - Kevin Sullivan vs. The Man With No Name (Butcher) *- Nasty Boys vs. Harlem Heat for the WCW Tag Titles *- Great Muta vs. Paul Orndorff I'd guess that Bubba will not lose against Sting, to set up the interest in a third match between the two as the US Title tournament final. There's a lot of talk that the Steiners and the Road Warriors will not be at this show and that both teams may also not be at the Bash PPV. - After Slamboree, the big WCW wrestlers will embark on a tour of Germany and Austria, with the first show taking place on 05/24. Of course Hogan, Savage, Flair, Vader, Sting, Bubba, Alex Wright, Nasty Boys, and Harlem Heat are on the tour, but Butcher and Kevin Sullivan will also be taking their show on the road. - Interview: This is the final installment of the Bill Watts interview which was published in the great sheet, The Wrestler Flyer, in 04/93. (To people that missed earlier pieces of the interview, I don't keep many wrestling files on-line. If we get a new ftp site, I'll take the time to upload the different things that people frequently ask me for.) Clark: You've said before that one of your best concepts when you were promoting Mid South was that you took yourself out of the ring and pushed other stars. Some people would say that you broke that policy by pushing your son, Erik, in... Watts: I think that's so fuckin' stupid. First of all, again, as I have said many times, that if you were to go out and get somebody for wrestling, what are you going to go get? Some asshole that got his body out of a bottle and is on drugs, that's in front of a mirror in gym, and can't walk and chew gum at the same time. One of the guys we had under a guaranteed contract, Dusty keeps trying to do something with him over there, I've seen the guy walk down the apron and fall off the apron. My son, Erik, has a wrestling background, an athletic background, and an educational background. I watched Dory Funk Jr, and I watched Terry Funk, and I've watched different guys in wrestling, and they were pushed if their dad was in the business. Some of them lived up and exceeded it, and some of them didn't But, it was a damn good gamble because they have grown up in the business. Greg Valentine was a great hand in his day. Dory Jr. was a great, great hand. Terry Funk was a great hand. Mike Graham was small but he certainly was a good hand. You could just go down the list of the guys. Barry Windham, when he's motivated and challenged, can do anything. Vince McMahon, what if his dad hadn't made him a promoter? We'd probably all still be in the business! (laughs) Seriously, Donald Trump, what if his father hadn't brought him into the construction business? I think it's small people just trying again to make much-to-do about nothing. Erik, if I had been doing Mid South, I'd have pushed Erik because he is a sincere kid. A lot of the top hands at WCW told me, not only when I was there but after I left, that Erik was further ahead than some guys that have been in the business for two or three years. We didn't push Erik as much as people think we pushed him. We shot one angle with him, and that was him and Arn Anderson. And it was Arn's idea. It was Arn Anderson's idea. That's the only thing we did. We tried to do a deal with him and Rude, but Rude has a little bit different concept of himself than I do. When I saw Rude's true value, in my opinion, it was the match he had with Chono in Philadelphia. It changed my opinion of Rick Rude. Clark: From your knowledge and your experiences in the wrestling business, would you rather see Erik in a different field? Watts: Well, yeah. I would rather see him in a different field because he may or may not be so frustrated. But again, I don't try to talk my kids out of their own dreams. They have to experience it themselves. So when they have a dream, I try to support them. Then they have a chance of making it or not making it. But otherwise, what if I talk them out of it? They'll always hold that against me. So, I just support them and love them. That's what I'rve always done. Erik wanted to be a quarterback. I never thought he should be a quarterback. He could have played any position, but he wanted to be a quarterback. So, I supported him being a quarterback, and he was a quarterback. He was a third string quarterback in his junior year of eligibility and his senior year he was the number two quarterback. In the first game, the number one guy got his leg broken. And he led the team for the rest of the year. No matter what, Erik becarne the starter. And Erik threw on national TV for over 300 yards against Ohio State. Clark: How would you respond to the argument that Erik was unfairly given a push upon his arrival in WCW, when he hadn't wrestled anywhere else before? Watts: Where would you start somebody? Did Don Shula have his kid go play little league football somewhere, or did he start him with the Miami Dolphins? Did DeBartolo have his kid get experience with the 49ers or not? So, that argument is so stupid. If you were going to make sure your kid was in a system where you thought the basics were going to be properly learned, you'd start him in the system that you had the most control of. Just like every other promoter started their own son in this business. They didn't send him to some place else to get started. The next thing is, where the fuck could you send him in this business where he could make a living? What are you going to do? Bring your kid into the business and then try to kill him off? He doesn't have a great contract by WCW standards, that's for damn sure. So the bottom line, that's another argument that is so bullshit. Where's he going to get more work, at WCW or some outlaw promotion or some independent promotion that runs twice a week? If you had your own son who you thought had ability, what would you do, would you try to put him in the best environment or the worst? Don't you recall at the time I was also starting developmental towns for all our young talent, which I fought like hell to get at WCW. Johnny B. Badd had his first twenty minute match in one of them. He was amazed. The kids love those developmental towns. They got to work and got to learn their trade. The deal to teaching a wrestler how to wrestle, it's just like when I took "Dr. Death," who was a legitimate four time all-American in amateur wrestling, I booked him where he was booked seven nights a week. He wrestled every day. That's what you don't have today. So, where do you learn your trade? You've got a bunch of guys that go out and they'd go short matches or they'd do the same old routines over and over and over again in our business, where it's predictable. If you've seen one of these routine workers' matches, you've seen them all. They do the same highspots, the same false finishes. Then they think they're great workers. I think that that is a biased accusation. It doesn't have any merit whatsoever. I wanted independents because once you've got a guy broken in and past the basics, you could send him out for six months to a year of seasoning, and that's what made the business strong. You can't do that anymore. Because a guy can't go to Jerry Jarrett and make $25 a night or you can't go to Texas where everybody gets in free and you don't even know if you're going to work one night a week. Where in the hell do you send a kid that's serious about learning his trade? Clark: What are your personal feelings about the Von Erich family tragedy and what it all means? Watts: The Von Erich situation is a very, very tragic family situation. Probably one of the greatest tragedies ever in our business. It's not for me to criticize it because, God almighty, that could happen to anybody. None of them were forced into wrestling. Now, whether or not they believed or thought that they could live up to what the others did, if you're talking about Mike, but Mike wasn't forced to go into wrestling. The bottom line is, when you take your own life, it's your decision, isn't it? So, everybody wants to put that blame on something else. But, you just really can't do that. The Von Erich situation is just one of those horrible, horrible tragedies. I think the biggest problem is that, as a family, they never could come to grasp with the fact that all those kids were drug addicts. I mean, every one of them. And it's the worst thing I've ever seen happen. Everybody tries to make so much out of that instead of the fact that it was just a horrible tragedy. I know Jack and I know Doris, and it's horrible. I knew those kids since they were young kids. Three of them became big stars in the business. Clark: But, like in Kerry's case, his success came really quick and then it kind of dwindled off as he got... Watts: It dwindled off because he became a drug addict. But, name me a sport that it doesn't dwindle off if you become such a complete addict. Kerry's success, the wrestling era was hot, the Dallas territory was hot, they had a lot of great talent, and Kerry became the biggest star of all of them as far as box office. He was the third kid in line so they were waiting for him, and he had that certain charisma. That's like Erik says, when you say, "You need to pay your dues in the business." Has Sting ever put the ring up and down? Has Sting ever sold t-shirts st the business? Has Sting ever had to act as a security guard at the business? Has he sold tickets at the business? Has he had to clean up the dressing rooms? And certainly, has he ever had to go stretch anybody? Well then, what is paying your dues? Because you took steroids and you luckily got in a fabulous position to get probably one of the best guaranteed contracts in the business? And I'm not knocking Sting. I really like him, I truly do. But, let's talk about putting your dues in. Where the hell did he do all these dues? Erik has put the ring up and down. He's sold t-shirts. He's been a security guard. He's worked the doors. He's sold tickets. My kids had to go work at the matches because I believed in them earning something. Clark: Do you think there's any correlation at all between some of the other fathers who pushed their sons and the Von Erichs, or do you just feel it's a tragedy in itself that can't be compared to anything like that? Watts: Well, again, I was there when Dory Funk Jr. was breaking in and I was there when Terry broke in. Dory got pushed much stronger than I pushed my own son, and so did Terry. It worked because they became great performers in this business. I'm sure their daddy would turn over in his grave when, in the heyday of the wrestling business, he died, and it (his promotion) was left with them, and in less than a year they lost it. But, their ability in the ring was great. Kerry had an ability in the ring. Kerry's drawback in the ring was the drugs. David had a great charisma and ability in the ring. David was the kid that had the greatest feel for it. Kevin was a great athlete. All three of those kids were great athletes. Mike Graham got pushed. But, Mike also paid his dues. He did it all. Greg Gagne, I know Verne, when you broke in under Verne, you paid a price. I was there when Barry Windham's dad broke in under Verne. He put the ring up and down. When you broke in for Verne Gagne, you had to do it all. You paid the price. You wanted to be in the business. Nothing was given to you. Verne broke them in right. That's what WCW needs to go back to. Instead of buying guys into the business, they need to make guys pay the price to get in. That's what they do in Japan. Clark: But, you never thought about the Von Erich situation when you were pushing your son, Erik? Watts: Shit no, because I never pushed Erik like the Von Erichs. The Von Erichs were never beaten. My kid got beat by every top hand that he went against, right on TV. My kid didn't beat any top hand, except Arn Anderson when he was finishing up on his contract. But, we were setting up an angle. Bobby Eaton had been beaten by everybody and was never a big single person, anyway. So it didn't hurt Bobby Eaton anymore than where he was already at, to be beat. So who the hell did Erik beat that was so great? He beat a bunch of job guys. When Dory Funk Jr. was first in the business, he went broadway with the world's champions, which was unheard of back in the days of the NWA, but especially for a kid in his first year in the business. I shot an angle in a town one time and he came in and beat Ted DiBiase's dad after I shot the angle with him, in the same night. I don't think you can sit there and correlate them (the Von Erich deaths) all. Every one of them is a separate set of circumstances. And who the shit gives a shit, anyway? If you could produce life down to a checklist of do's and don'ts, it would be so simple, wouldn't it? But, there's no way you can do that. Again, Erik certainly had the background and the ability and the charisma and the smarts. He's a damn good investment. If I was doing it all over, I'd probably get him a better contract than he's got. He had it hard. He had to be at the gym every day. He still goes every day on out to the gym to workout. Plus, he had all the guys on his ass that were just a bunch of jealous pricks. Clark: Did the Bill Watts that everybody knew change at all in the five years that you were out of the business? Wstts: Fuck no. I'm probably more mello than I used to be. I'm still a passionate, hard-driven person. If I love to do something, I work at it hard and I put my energy in it. But, no, I didn't change. It was just that I was under more scrutiny because whatever you're doing today in the business, you're scrutinized by everybody. It's like doing it in a fishbowl, where everybody is taking a side over everything you do. Clark: When you were coming into WCW, because of all of your past accomplishments and your reputation and success in the business, I think everyone like wrestlers, fans, and everyone else was very excited and enthusiastic about you being able to turn things around... Watts: Yeah, so was I, until I got over there and found out what all I had inherited. And it was impossible to restructure it because they weren't going to let you. Clark: But, from talking to a lot of those people, from what happened with the situation, those people were kind of disappointed with... Watts: I'm just saying, unless they could walk in my shoes, they don't know what I went through. But, without a doubt, I understand the wrestling business and I know the wrestling business. And had I been given the autonomy I was promised, I could have done a hell of a lot more. But it'd been downtrending for three and a half years. Nobody's going to turn it around overnight. Actually, that's just at WCW. It had been downtrending since about '86, except for one promoter. Crockett, from '86 on down, was downtrending, was going broke. Clark: Those people were also saying that if anyone could turn the business around. it was Bill Watts. Watts: Well, I could. Without a doubt, I could. But, you can't do it if your hands are tied behind you. I'll tell you what, you're an eighteen year old kid, and if we were in a streetfight with my hands tied behind me and you had a baseball bat, you're going to beat my head in. That's exactly the same thing in "corporate America." Without a doubt, I could have done the job. I was doing the job, in spite of them. But, I had no support. Clark: But, because of what happened at WCW, do you think that your reputation in the wrestling business has been damaged? Watts: Well, I'm sure it has, to some people. The people that don't know what the fuck they're talking about, anyway. My reputation hasn't been damaged with anybody that I care about. And I know what I did or didn't do. Basically speaking, they had to damage my reputation to make me expendable. They could damage anybody's reputation they want. In a real, seemingly, wonderful way. That's the corporate way. They're like babies, they laugh in your face and shit in your hand. - Booking Prediction Tourney: I'll get the WrestleMania results posted in the next couple of days. I'm finally feeling a bit better after my bout with the flu. - WWW: This post is presented weekly, presumably with some short delay, on Mark Long's r.s.p-w home page on the Web. That page contains a lot of interesting wrestling info, so give it a try at: http://www.luc.edu/~mlong/wrestling.html - Videos: I have posted something about the availability of videos. If you missed it, I'll send it to you in e-mail upon request. It appears that the istrain.health.ufl.edu ftp site has been wiped clean up r.s.p-w stuff and nobody knows what's going on. Herb...